There is currently legislation being pushed through to limit the powers of for-profit colleges. Yesterday I saw a political ad that, like many political ads, was very misleading, that encourages voters to vote against the legislation citing "limiting freedom" as a reason why there should not be greater regulation. What is your stance on greater regulation of for-profit colleges? What do you see as the pros and cons for more stringent rules and regulations in their regard?
2 a. http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/111312/more-get-1-million-to-lead-colleges?mod=career-leadership b.http://www.wtsp.com/news/mostpop/story.aspx?storyid=102937&provider=top
Lastly, a bit of controversial inspiration? for anyone looking to get into higher education administration in the future. What do you think about the pay that higher ed administrators receive? The second one lets you search USF employees and see how much they make. I just clicked "ALL" Happy Reading!
It doesn’t surprise me that for-profit schools ($31,190) put students in higher debt than those who attend public ($7,960) or nonprofit colleges ($17,040). It also doesn’t surprise me that they have a lower graduation rate than other schools, especially with the higher debt and the not so outstanding credentials they receive to go out into the real world. If I was at a for-profit institution and realized I was paying more money education, with little benefits, I would have gone elsewhere before going or I would have transferred out to somewhere that had the degree I was seeking at a more financially responsible cost.
In my opinion, it seems that the greatest concern with for-profit institutions (and most institutions in general) is the debt their students take for their education. The graduation rates vary so much with for profit, private and public institutions that I think it is too presumptuous to make generalized statements about their graduation rates. However, I think that the debt students take on for a degree which they may not finish is astronomical. While students at a public or not for profit school may also acquire debt, they are often pursuing higher degrees which will hopefully lead to higher paying jobs. I also know several people who work for for-profit institutions and they are disheartened by the amount of debt their students take on unnecessarily.
I found it surprising how much variation there is in the four year graduation rates of different for profit colleges. Although maybe it shouldn’t be so surprising, there is a lot of variation in the four year graduation rates of nonprofit colleges and universities too. Maybe it’s an indicator that not all for profit schools are providing the same quality of education and support to their students. So, while it is easy to condemn some for profit colleges for the level of debt their students accrue and the rate at which their students graduate, some for profit schools seem to be doing a good job preparing their students for the working world. The article said ITT Technical Institute graduates 66% of four year degree seekers in four years, right on par with nonprofit schools. The 9% graduation rate for four year degree seekers at the University of Phoenix is far more troubling. I think what those two numbers show is that for profit schools can’t be looked at as a big group but rather need to be evaluated individually. They are not necessarily a bad idea if they provide the service they promise and equip students with the skills they need. We don’t evaluate the success of public schools by looking at them as a group, we look at them each individually, same with private schools, and it might be time to start doing the same thing with for profit colleges.
The articles regarding salary rates of higher education administrators were not surprising to me as there are similar discrepancies in K-12 education as well. The second article about pay rates at USF made me laugh a little when one individual mentioned how ridiculous it is that coaches are being paid more than most faculty and that academics should come first. While I agree academics should come first this problem isn't isolated in the higher education sector, but is rather a society wide issue. A significant number of superstar athletes are paid astronomically more than the president who is responsible for an entire country's well-being. The articles bring up a topic that is a slippery slope to go down as many upper level administrators do have a heavy load of responsibility to carry and work hours that significantly exceed a typical 9-5 job. At the same time, however, there are those administrators who are making more than a pretty penny but do not have the institution's best interests in mind when it comes to making decisions and representing the university. There is no black and white answer to ensuring that every administrator truly earns what he/she is paid. Institutions can, however, do their best to hire the right people and have a series of checks in place to be certain the individual is properly upholding his/her responsibilities.
As I used the search feature in the “Salaries at USF” article I was surprised to see some of my past economics professors who made over $100,000. The salaries of some presidents at private schools are extremely high, but are they doing enough to earn these amounts?. Since I am not very knowledgeable on how presidents are compensated, the breakdown of the pay showing a much lower base salary and then receiving bonuses or other compensation to get over the $1 million mark was interesting.
From reading the articles on for-profit schools it sounds like there needs to be more realistic future expectations for students who attend for-profits. Some students choosing to attend for-profit schools need to seek out more information and there needs to be more opportunities for students to learn about different types of schools and ways to achieve educational goals.
Although the amount of student debt is a large concern at for-profit institutions, I think the larger issue is how these families and students are being taken advantage of by not having the same knowledge about the differences in for-profit and public and non-profit institutions. Although there is a greater debt associated with the attendance and this debt is largely attached to unfinished degrees, jobs that aren't as high paying as promised, or credits that are not transferrable to publice and private institutions. Just as we educate our society about the need to immunizations and disease prevention, I think the same public approach should be used about education. The sales approach by admissions counselors at for-profits take advantage of the lack of information about the college application process, student loan debt, and other cheaper options. This student population is in need of unbiased information and as a country I think it is our society that is repsonsible for educating the masses about this.
As for salary information, I agree with Andrea. This reflects our societal values and you would find these types of compensation variety by career outside of higher education. I think what struck me as the most disparity was how little the VP's of student affairs made in relation to some professors. As Dr. Miller said, his job has much different "emergencies" now as a professor that it did as Dean of Students. Very rarely is a professor on call for student emergencies and the on call process should deserve a higher compensation in my opinion.
I agree with Becca in that the sales approach by admissions representatives to incoming students plays a large part in this. I think students usually understand that for profits are usually more expensive but I don't think students think about the larger implications i.e debt. Jose L. Cruz speaks truth when he mentions how ..."access is only the first step." It's great that higher education is more accessible but at the same time, that isn't enough. By not provided substaintial information to students ultimately is doing them a disservice.
After reading the articles about salaries within higher education administration, I feel as though a higher education administrator should receive a higher salary than they are currently receiving. I feel as though having an education and educational experiences are one of the most priceless qualities an individual can possess. Having the ability to teach students and give them these experiences is tremendous feats in which I don’t feel higher education administrators receive much credit for. In addition to Andrea’s previous comments, I feel that if an administrator is upholding their responsibilities then universities should reward them rightfully. A checks and balances system needs to be in place to make sure individuals are upholding their responsibilities of the being an educator. When looking at the USF salaries, I saw how the priorities of universities are not towards educating students but more towards athletics. Why is a football and basketball coach making more money than a dean of students or vice president of student affairs? I understand that athletics brings funding, recognition, and other assets to a university, but does that mean that athletics and funding should take precedence over educating. I may not know how everything works yet within the higher education system, but from what I see thus far I believe that universities have strayed far off from its values and need to do better and get it together!
I found the article on for-profit-education to by quite interesting. While I believe that many of these institutions are misleading and aggressive in their recruiting tactics, some are generally concerned for their customer/students’ interests. It is almost ironic that a private, for profit entity—usually the bastion for customer satisfaction—is actually the adverse in regards to government institutions. Government institutions are well-known for their almost rampant disregard for resources, yet these private institutions are just as bad or worse. I read that a president of one for profit university actually made $43 million a year…and the majority of his company’s students didn’t graduate. Now, I know some universities have high paid officials, but no one really seems to give a damn that the Florida House spent $44 million of tax payers’ money on a new courthouse. Life is all about balance, and the government really needs to step in to reign in control of these institutions. Adam Smith, the man who created our economic style—Capitalism—stated that Capitalism must be held back, or its natural tendency for profit growth would spread vast, with little regard for all that stand in its way. This is true today. While, naturally, one does not want to live in Communism, he does not want to live under Fascism either. The equilibrium between the two is what life is made of: balance.
(And to Greg's concern about Athletics: I agree that universities need athletics for the money it brings to the school, and this is good. I wonder what happens with that extra money, though? Does it just go back to athletics? I seriously doubt that when an institution wins a championship, the school gives out thousands of grants and scholarships with the increased revenue. Usually people only have to incentives to work together: spiritually (compassion/love) or materially (financial), and until the day that people are more motivated by the idea to help others, I don't think things are going to be changing much.)
This sentence precisely sums up my preconceived notions of for-profit colleges... They are "paving a path into the subbasement of the American economy". Not only are the students attending there less likely to find a job that will help dig them out of the debt they attained while enrolled, but they're also less likely to graduate in the first place. I'd like to think - although this is entirely speculation - that the leading cause is because the employees at a for-profit just don't have the passion to "help" students the way employees at a nonprofit or public institution might. Of course, that is generalizing, but the for-profit institution is getting what its asking for (money) and other types of institutions are more concerned with the well-being of their students.
The article from Yahoo about the college presidents made me think, but I wouldn't say it surprised me. I've always (again generalizing and stereotyping, I know) seen private institutions as a sort of "it's all in the family" kind of situation. Similar to the article we read a while back about the president handing the school over to her son, I feel like private institutions do whatever they want and that's fine with me. Private institutions have their own ways of doing things, and every action has an equal or opposite reaction. These salaries are creating a ripple somewhere - whether that means less faculty and staff, a sense of entitlement among students, a less successful athletic program, etc. Whatever the case, the more you OVERPAY a president, the less you can pay someone or something else, and that will have an effect eventually.
I am conflicted about the salaries received by the higher ed administrators. I know that the salaries seem like large numbers, but the compensation in a private company with the same level of responsibility and supervision would be a lot higher. In reviewing some of the salaries at USF, it looks like some of the job titles sound misleading and are not a true reflection of their jobs. I noticed that some administrators are still listed as professors and making money that seems out of line with other teaching faculty. Not only is the responsibility different between administration and tenured faculty, so is the job security. These are all factors to consider. On the bright side, whoever said there is no money in higher education is mistaken. It may be concentrated at the top, but at least we can dream.
As far as regulation of higher education, I think there needs to be a hard look taken at any schools that don’t show successful student outcomes and show high exiting debt. Most of the media coverage is focusing on for-profits, but there are a number of community college systems and universities that are draining money from the government and leaving the students in debts they have little chance of repaying. If there is going to be a review, it needs to be system wide. The pro for this would be a chance of making sure that students are getting what they (and we as taxpayers) are paying for. The con would be that the federal and state governments have shown no indication of recognizing effective programs. It is much more likely to become a political weapon than a fair review of the system.
The Chronicle article on for-profit institutions was really enlightening. What I took away from it is that students need to be aware of what they are signing up for at these types of institutions, apart from what staff at that institution tells them. As Katie Haycock stated, failing at these universities places a larger financial burden on the student than other schools. Educating prospective students and families, as Becca mentioned, is key so that students feel that they are not being taken advantage of. A third party must be involved so that this information is unbiased. The article regarding USF salaries reminded me of my UE class’s discussion posted on Blackboard. The argument of teachers being paid much less than athletes came up, and I was surprised by the reaction. Many students agreed education was important, but the social pressure and physical sacrifice was greater for athletes and they therefore deserved high salaries. I forgot that this argument existed (probably due to being in higher education for longer then they have). This larger societal issue is reflected in the salaries at USF, explaining why the highest paid position is head football coach.
Well, as a person who once worked in for-profit I can definitely understand the negative perception. The amount of cost is high, and there are certain recruiters who do not have the interest of the student in mind. On the other hand, there are students who benefit and actually prefer this type of education. These students are those who can afford it, require non-traditional hours due to work and family and enjoy online and/or weekend courses. As a CSA guy, I struggled with the type of recruitment process we practiced (although I did well). This is only because I am more of a people driven personality than results driven. This is not to say that all those who work in for-profit education are the boiler room types either, although there are definitely bad apples.
I agree with Kevin and Andrea on the salary issue. While It does seem top heavy, there is added responsibility and scrutiny to deal with. My issue would be more with the lack of sufficient salary for those who really make the university go such as evaluation teams, financial aid representatives, support staff etc.
After reading the article about college presidents, I was shocked by the amount they are getting paid. The article states that "college presidents' jobs have shifted over the years from being focused on academics to consisting heavily of fund-raising, lobbying and other external relations." It also states that a lot of presidents getting hired lately are coming from outside of academia. I don't like the fact that they are coming from outside of academics because that means that they don't know how everything is being operated underneath them. I think that it would be a much better transition for a school if a president was hired with academic and business experience.
I always knew that administration within colleges and universities made a decent living, but I didn’t realize what it actually equated to. They do hold leadership-heavy positions, and they do have to make decisions that can or do affect an institution as a whole. My main concern is where the funding for their salaries is coming from, especially the bonuses and “other compensation.” When salaries are rising as tuition is rising, it makes me wonder what the main focus within colleges and institutions may be. It is understandable that institutions want to keep the best faculty and staff around. However, at what cost…?
I also agree with Megan’s statements that some of these administrators are being hired from corporate America, running colleges like so. Hence, the corporate America salary is expected. The issue, however, is that institutions aren’t necessarily getting the “corporate revenue.” In the end, colleges need to re-evaluate their generous paying scales before students end up paying the same amount for colleges that some of the administrators make yearly.
Regarding for-profit institutions, I agree with Becca and Monica about the "sales person" and his or her role in the issue. It is that person's job and so I agree with Becca again in that there needs to be more information out there about "the college application process, student loan debt, and other cheaper options," whether that be through regulation or not. If students were better informed about this process they would be less likely to be targets and be taken advantage of. In regards to the salaries of college presidents, some of them are insanely high and it would be the mark of a good leader to give some of that up as many of his or her students are likely struggling to pay for an education. I was also shocked to see how many people at USF make more than $100,000, especially the number of instructors and assistant and associate instructors who make that much! I am on the same page as Becca - those who are on call and watch out for student's safety and well-being deserve the higher salaries a little more.
In the "Report Faults For-Profit Colleges" article, it focuses on the large debt burdens these students are taking on by attending these institutions. However, many students are taking on large amounts of debt to attend any instistution. Having done my executive summary on students loans and the difficulty in repaying, personally I feel a huge opportunity with higher education is in actually educating incoming students and their families on exactly what their final loan debt can/will look like and what these monthly payments will look like. When we sign a mortgage for a home or a loan for a car, we know exactly how many payments we will be making and for exactly how long. This is definitely not the case for educational loans as money is just awarded with no clue how the repayments will actually look. I feel that if this were the case or at least some sort of education were offered to give a true picture of the burden that could be at the end of education, more students and families could be better prepared and able to financially set themselves up for success.
As far as salaries go...this just seems reflective of society in general. Since we all just designed our perfect campus, maybe we could have allocated salaries appropriately in that setting. What was an ironic point in the article was the fact that university's feel forced to pay out higher salaries to retain or attract presidents when only a few weeks ago we were reading an article about the shortage of presidents to fill upcoming vacancies as current presidents retire.
WIth the "Report Faults For-Profit Colleges" article I believe when it is talking about different colleges and profit vs. non-proft it will come down to an individual institution. Even though one can get a good idea by looking at the statistics. But, in the end I think it is important for the student to look at the individual institution and then rate it and not look at institutions at a general view such as profit, non-profit, community, etc.
"More Get $1 Million To Lead Colleges" is a good article because I believe it opens people's eyes to a subject matter they may not be familiar with. Some people can debate whether college presidents get too much or not enough and I would even go back to the first article and I say it's on an individual basis. But, I can say that when president's are paid a lot of money they are in the public eye and they will be held accountable. I think it is good that the number of how much their compensation packages is out because I think it puts them under a certain microscope where they know they have to perform because they know people are watching. I've heard stories from students at other colleges who think their president doesn't do anything or if their president does something it's at a football game. I believe when articles like this come out it makes president's think more about their institution and why they are really there.
The more read about for-profit universities, with this article on for-profit universities, and having Keiser University as my Alternative campus, the more I feel sorry for the people that attend them. Like Becca pointed out I feel they are being taken advantage of. Someone sees their commercial on TV and thinks it will be so easy to get this degree and make a positive step in their life, only to find out their degree means little. It is even worse if they want to transfer to a 4 yr institution and often find those credits they spent thousands of dollars on will not transfer.
In regards to the for profit colleges I agree with Becca. It's really upsetting that these institutions are taking advantage of these people who are looking for help and guidance. In the article I agreed with the scenarios listed for enrollment, especially when pointing out most students do not have the adequate tools and understanding of the degrees they are majoring in, and end up dropping out with a huge loan to pay back. I think there should be a more watchful eye over these colleges and the scams they pull on perspective students.
As Lindsay stated the salaries of some presidents at private schools are extremely high, but are they doing enough to earn these amounts. I personally think that this varies from institution to institution and should be considered on a case by case basis. For example, when a school has only seen the increased enrollments, expansion plans, and significant turnaround on a college campus they sometimes need to pay these significant amounts to their presents in order to keep them from going elsewhere. I also don’t know a lot about sports. Actually, Lisa can tell you that I know just as much about sports as she knows about sororities…. I think that it has always been common knowledge, and not just at USF that people in the spots industry are highly paid. They work more demanding hours, outside of the typical 9-5 realm, and they are in the public eye at all times. They are also getting paid to teach or in professional instances play a sport. These people also work like crazy, and it is not a job for everyone. I think they deserve the money they make and unless we are experts in the field we should not judge their salaries because they probably are receiving it for valid reason. From my experience interning with the Tampa Bay Lightning (TBL) in college, (which may not be a very good example through all of the changes they have undergone in the past few years) but successful people who are not even in the industry, purchase the TBL and then run it league like a business in many aspects.
For profit colleges must be subject to regulation. For profit colleges are a classic example of “having your cake and eating it too”. They benefit from Title IV policies and have unstable accreditation. These elements, along with unacceptable student outcomes cast an ongoing dark cloud. There may be some good providers for profit degrees, but the bad elements blanket them all.
The thing that stands out to me in the article is that ITT can graduate more than 60% of its students in four years but the University of Phoenix graduates only 9%. To me it seems like this is a product of their branding. University of Phoenix brands itself as an online institution that replaces the traditional experience for people that cannot take the time to attend a four year public institution. ITT tech talks in its commercials about how you can earn a degree fast and get back into a career. The difference in the message provided by these institutions leads to the statistics of their students. I believe that this can be looked at regarding research institutions as well. Most large public four year institutions that are nonprofit tend to graduate students at higher rates because they strive to. Their language and culture nurtures that result.
As for the salaries at USF. I am glad that the most intelligent people in our community make that amount of money. It seems to be a lot but clearly we all have a viewpoint that the universities work develops students for the future so it is complementary to see high earnings.
1. I found this article very interesting, especially in it's comparison of for-profit colleges to lenders in the subprime loan market (which some argue helped cause the current recession). I am all for increasing access to higher education, but I agree with the authors of the study that for-profit colleges need significantly more regulation. For-profit colleges and universities seem to be in the wild west of education and there doesn't seem to be any sort of accountability. I think we're starting to hear more about this every day when there are more and more news reports about investigations into these school. I wholeheartedly think for-profit higher education has its place in the education spectrum, but just like public schools, there should be extensive and strong federal, state, professional, and accrediting association regulations to make sure these schools are being held accountable and are doing more than just taking peoples money.
2. I definitely want to be a university president now! Well, that might not be entirely true, but like the many other people who (I'm sure) read the article, I thought to myself, "man, it would sure be sweet to be in that position!" Thinking about it however, I don't think these pays are necessarily excessive. As the article itself points out, "College presidents' jobs have shifted over the years from being focused on academics to consisting heavily of fund-raising, lobbying and other external relation." Given the change of duties (and I happen to think these new duties are very important), it only makes sense that BOT's would start looking to the corporate world and would start offering larger pay packages to attract the types of people that would want to do those kinds of things.
After reading the article, “Report Faults For-Profit Colleges,” I had mixed impressions on how to view the situation. I’ve known people who’ve attended one of these school and made the most of it and wound up walking away with more opportunity than anyone expected (for what they specifically wanted to do). The marketing tactics, for sure, can be deceiving. However, the right type of student can benefit tremendously from the offers made by for-profit schools. In the real world, people can wind up working together with all sorts of educational backgrounds, which I saw firsthand working in the pharmacy: you had people attend universities and professional graduate schools to receive doctorates of pharmacy working alongside people who only completed high school and attended these for-profit schools to become certified pharmacy techs. And it was not unusual to have a pharmacy tech more versed and knowledgeable on the running of the pharmacy, the medicine or drug interactions than a pharmacist. One gets paid upward of $100,000 and the other $22,000… Disparity in opportunity? Yup. But for some people, if they are never given that initial opportunity to improve their lives, there’s no in-between for them due to their circumstances. It is disheartening the amount of debt they’ll accrue or the inability to secure a job upon completion and I agree with the article’s author that there ought to be more oversight so less people get scammed. A big difference between for-profit schools and public/private institutions is the ability for alumni to return with noteworthy endowments. It’s just not as feasible for for-profit schools to expect as much from its graduated students to help its current students.
Laura I completely agree with what you are saying that sports professionals work outside the normal realm of 9-5 but they aren't the only ones. Last night after class I went back to work and was at a new member presentation until about 10:30 I typically work hours well after 5pm does this justify that I get a 2.5 million dollar salary? Yes it's also true that I am not an expert in Fraternities and Sororities and I am not a seasoned professional but I even those who are aren't making 2.5 million a year. When it comes to sports people are really paying for the name to make the program more successful. Rick Pitino is the basketbal coach at UofL and while yes he is truly amazing and has done wonders whos to say there is some no name professional out there that knows just as much as he does about basketball and would make all the same decisions and maybe better ones when it comes to coaching? However that no name is just that not Rick Pitino whos name carries weight and gets great prospective players to come and sign on to make the program that much better.
I tend to agree with many comments said about the for-profit educational institutions. I think with the economy in a slump, students really need to take a harder look at what they are signing up for when it comes to their education-not be drawn in to something by clever marketing tactics. It is critical for students to look into the future and think of what may not be the easy route right now, but the right decision later on. Obtaining a higher degree that is accredited, and can help you get that experience to find a higher paying job (with experiences in and outside the classroom), which is something that these for-profit institutions do not necessarily offer. Those outside the classroom experiences are what give students that extra edge when it comes to job competition, however they will be still be paying for the opportunity. It is just critical to assess what each person is looking to gain out of their educational experience, and really do a lot of research to find the right fit for them, that is not going to financially burden them too much in the future. I also agree with the fact there needs to be much more regulationa dn standards when it comes to monitoring the for-profit institutions to protect those students.
Are these instructors that are being spoken of in the article about USF salaries being paid out of E&G? I would like to know how the salaries are determined as well. Also another factor to theses instructors receiving high salaries could be because the instructors may come from a different region and are ultimately paid what we may consider a high salary. In order for USF to be competitive and get the best instructors is to either match what they were paid prior or more. Now I will never understand why instructors would miss multiple classes (without good reason) and be paid that much. As far as for profit institutions targeting low income students, I find this issue is reoccurring in higher education and not just with for profit institutions, I's business unfortunately, when it come to finances it doesn't always get the best of everyone.
I hope everyone had a happy Turkey Day! For the last blog of the semester I've got some articles that are pretty relevant right now.
ReplyDelete1 a.http://chronicle.com/article/Report-Faults-For-Profit/125486/
b.http://www.forbes.com/2010/10/26/for-profit-education-low-income-diversity-lifestyle-mitchem.html
There is currently legislation being pushed through to limit the powers of for-profit colleges. Yesterday I saw a political ad that, like many political ads, was very misleading, that encourages voters to vote against the legislation citing "limiting freedom" as a reason why there should not be greater regulation. What is your stance on greater regulation of for-profit colleges? What do you see as the pros and cons for more stringent rules and regulations in their regard?
2 a. http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/111312/more-get-1-million-to-lead-colleges?mod=career-leadership
b.http://www.wtsp.com/news/mostpop/story.aspx?storyid=102937&provider=top
Lastly, a bit of controversial inspiration? for anyone looking to get into higher education administration in the future. What do you think about the pay that higher ed administrators receive? The second one lets you search USF employees and see how much they make. I just clicked "ALL" Happy Reading!
It doesn’t surprise me that for-profit schools ($31,190) put students in higher debt than those who attend public ($7,960) or nonprofit colleges ($17,040). It also doesn’t surprise me that they have a lower graduation rate than other schools, especially with the higher debt and the not so outstanding credentials they receive to go out into the real world. If I was at a for-profit institution and realized I was paying more money education, with little benefits, I would have gone elsewhere before going or I would have transferred out to somewhere that had the degree I was seeking at a more financially responsible cost.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, it seems that the greatest concern with for-profit institutions (and most institutions in general) is the debt their students take for their education. The graduation rates vary so much with for profit, private and public institutions that I think it is too presumptuous to make generalized statements about their graduation rates. However, I think that the debt students take on for a degree which they may not finish is astronomical. While students at a public or not for profit school may also acquire debt, they are often pursuing higher degrees which will hopefully lead to higher paying jobs. I also know several people who work for for-profit institutions and they are disheartened by the amount of debt their students take on unnecessarily.
ReplyDeleteI found it surprising how much variation there is in the four year graduation rates of different for profit colleges. Although maybe it shouldn’t be so surprising, there is a lot of variation in the four year graduation rates of nonprofit colleges and universities too. Maybe it’s an indicator that not all for profit schools are providing the same quality of education and support to their students. So, while it is easy to condemn some for profit colleges for the level of debt their students accrue and the rate at which their students graduate, some for profit schools seem to be doing a good job preparing their students for the working world. The article said ITT Technical Institute graduates 66% of four year degree seekers in four years, right on par with nonprofit schools. The 9% graduation rate for four year degree seekers at the University of Phoenix is far more troubling. I think what those two numbers show is that for profit schools can’t be looked at as a big group but rather need to be evaluated individually. They are not necessarily a bad idea if they provide the service they promise and equip students with the skills they need. We don’t evaluate the success of public schools by looking at them as a group, we look at them each individually, same with private schools, and it might be time to start doing the same thing with for profit colleges.
ReplyDeleteThe articles regarding salary rates of higher education administrators were not surprising to me as there are similar discrepancies in K-12 education as well. The second article about pay rates at USF made me laugh a little when one individual mentioned how ridiculous it is that coaches are being paid more than most faculty and that academics should come first. While I agree academics should come first this problem isn't isolated in the higher education sector, but is rather a society wide issue. A significant number of superstar athletes are paid astronomically more than the president who is responsible for an entire country's well-being. The articles bring up a topic that is a slippery slope to go down as many upper level administrators do have a heavy load of responsibility to carry and work hours that significantly exceed a typical 9-5 job. At the same time, however, there are those administrators who are making more than a pretty penny but do not have the institution's best interests in mind when it comes to making decisions and representing the university. There is no black and white answer to ensuring that every administrator truly earns what he/she is paid. Institutions can, however, do their best to hire the right people and have a series of checks in place to be certain the individual is properly upholding his/her responsibilities.
ReplyDeleteAs I used the search feature in the “Salaries at USF” article I was surprised to see some of my past economics professors who made over $100,000. The salaries of some presidents at private schools are extremely high, but are they doing enough to earn these amounts?. Since I am not very knowledgeable on how presidents are compensated, the breakdown of the pay showing a much lower base salary and then receiving bonuses or other compensation to get over the $1 million mark was interesting.
ReplyDeleteFrom reading the articles on for-profit schools it sounds like there needs to be more realistic future expectations for students who attend for-profits. Some students choosing to attend for-profit schools need to seek out more information and there needs to be more opportunities for students to learn about different types of schools and ways to achieve educational goals.
Although the amount of student debt is a large concern at for-profit institutions, I think the larger issue is how these families and students are being taken advantage of by not having the same knowledge about the differences in for-profit and public and non-profit institutions. Although there is a greater debt associated with the attendance and this debt is largely attached to unfinished degrees, jobs that aren't as high paying as promised, or credits that are not transferrable to publice and private institutions. Just as we educate our society about the need to immunizations and disease prevention, I think the same public approach should be used about education. The sales approach by admissions counselors at for-profits take advantage of the lack of information about the college application process, student loan debt, and other cheaper options. This student population is in need of unbiased information and as a country I think it is our society that is repsonsible for educating the masses about this.
ReplyDeleteAs for salary information, I agree with Andrea. This reflects our societal values and you would find these types of compensation variety by career outside of higher education. I think what struck me as the most disparity was how little the VP's of student affairs made in relation to some professors. As Dr. Miller said, his job has much different "emergencies" now as a professor that it did as Dean of Students. Very rarely is a professor on call for student emergencies and the on call process should deserve a higher compensation in my opinion.
I agree with Becca in that the sales approach by admissions representatives to incoming students plays a large part in this. I think students usually understand that for profits are usually more expensive but I don't think students think about the larger implications i.e debt. Jose L. Cruz speaks truth when he mentions how ..."access is only the first step." It's great that higher education is more accessible but at the same time, that isn't enough. By not provided substaintial information to students ultimately is doing them a disservice.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the articles about salaries within higher education administration, I feel as though a higher education administrator should receive a higher salary than they are currently receiving. I feel as though having an education and educational experiences are one of the most priceless qualities an individual can possess. Having the ability to teach students and give them these experiences is tremendous feats in which I don’t feel higher education administrators receive much credit for. In addition to Andrea’s previous comments, I feel that if an administrator is upholding their responsibilities then universities should reward them rightfully. A checks and balances system needs to be in place to make sure individuals are upholding their responsibilities of the being an educator.
ReplyDeleteWhen looking at the USF salaries, I saw how the priorities of universities are not towards educating students but more towards athletics. Why is a football and basketball coach making more money than a dean of students or vice president of student affairs? I understand that athletics brings funding, recognition, and other assets to a university, but does that mean that athletics and funding should take precedence over educating. I may not know how everything works yet within the higher education system, but from what I see thus far I believe that universities have strayed far off from its values and need to do better and get it together!
I found the article on for-profit-education to by quite interesting. While I believe that many of these institutions are misleading and aggressive in their recruiting tactics, some are generally concerned for their customer/students’ interests. It is almost ironic that a private, for profit entity—usually the bastion for customer satisfaction—is actually the adverse in regards to government institutions. Government institutions are well-known for their almost rampant disregard for resources, yet these private institutions are just as bad or worse. I read that a president of one for profit university actually made $43 million a year…and the majority of his company’s students didn’t graduate. Now, I know some universities have high paid officials, but no one really seems to give a damn that the Florida House spent $44 million of tax payers’ money on a new courthouse.
ReplyDeleteLife is all about balance, and the government really needs to step in to reign in control of these institutions. Adam Smith, the man who created our economic style—Capitalism—stated that Capitalism must be held back, or its natural tendency for profit growth would spread vast, with little regard for all that stand in its way. This is true today. While, naturally, one does not want to live in Communism, he does not want to live under Fascism either. The equilibrium between the two is what life is made of: balance.
(And to Greg's concern about Athletics: I agree that universities need athletics for the money it brings to the school, and this is good. I wonder what happens with that extra money, though? Does it just go back to athletics? I seriously doubt that when an institution wins a championship, the school gives out thousands of grants and scholarships with the increased revenue. Usually people only have to incentives to work together: spiritually (compassion/love) or materially (financial), and until the day that people are more motivated by the idea to help others, I don't think things are going to be changing much.)
This sentence precisely sums up my preconceived notions of for-profit colleges... They are "paving a path into the subbasement of the American economy". Not only are the students attending there less likely to find a job that will help dig them out of the debt they attained while enrolled, but they're also less likely to graduate in the first place. I'd like to think - although this is entirely speculation - that the leading cause is because the employees at a for-profit just don't have the passion to "help" students the way employees at a nonprofit or public institution might. Of course, that is generalizing, but the for-profit institution is getting what its asking for (money) and other types of institutions are more concerned with the well-being of their students.
ReplyDeleteThe article from Yahoo about the college presidents made me think, but I wouldn't say it surprised me. I've always (again generalizing and stereotyping, I know) seen private institutions as a sort of "it's all in the family" kind of situation. Similar to the article we read a while back about the president handing the school over to her son, I feel like private institutions do whatever they want and that's fine with me. Private institutions have their own ways of doing things, and every action has an equal or opposite reaction. These salaries are creating a ripple somewhere - whether that means less faculty and staff, a sense of entitlement among students, a less successful athletic program, etc. Whatever the case, the more you OVERPAY a president, the less you can pay someone or something else, and that will have an effect eventually.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI am conflicted about the salaries received by the higher ed administrators. I know that the salaries seem like large numbers, but the compensation in a private company with the same level of responsibility and supervision would be a lot higher. In reviewing some of the salaries at USF, it looks like some of the job titles sound misleading and are not a true reflection of their jobs. I noticed that some administrators are still listed as professors and making money that seems out of line with other teaching faculty. Not only is the responsibility different between administration and tenured faculty, so is the job security. These are all factors to consider. On the bright side, whoever said there is no money in higher education is mistaken. It may be concentrated at the top, but at least we can dream.
ReplyDeleteAs far as regulation of higher education, I think there needs to be a hard look taken at any schools that don’t show successful student outcomes and show high exiting debt. Most of the media coverage is focusing on for-profits, but there are a number of community college systems and universities that are draining money from the government and leaving the students in debts they have little chance of repaying. If there is going to be a review, it needs to be system wide. The pro for this would be a chance of making sure that students are getting what they (and we as taxpayers) are paying for. The con would be that the federal and state governments have shown no indication of recognizing effective programs. It is much more likely to become a political weapon than a fair review of the system.
The Chronicle article on for-profit institutions was really enlightening. What I took away from it is that students need to be aware of what they are signing up for at these types of institutions, apart from what staff at that institution tells them. As Katie Haycock stated, failing at these universities places a larger financial burden on the student than other schools. Educating prospective students and families, as Becca mentioned, is key so that students feel that they are not being taken advantage of. A third party must be involved so that this information is unbiased.
ReplyDeleteThe article regarding USF salaries reminded me of my UE class’s discussion posted on Blackboard. The argument of teachers being paid much less than athletes came up, and I was surprised by the reaction. Many students agreed education was important, but the social pressure and physical sacrifice was greater for athletes and they therefore deserved high salaries. I forgot that this argument existed (probably due to being in higher education for longer then they have). This larger societal issue is reflected in the salaries at USF, explaining why the highest paid position is head football coach.
Well, as a person who once worked in for-profit I can definitely understand the negative perception. The amount of cost is high, and there are certain recruiters who do not have the interest of the student in mind. On the other hand, there are students who benefit and actually prefer this type of education. These students are those who can afford it, require non-traditional hours due to work and family and enjoy online and/or weekend courses. As a CSA guy, I struggled with the type of recruitment process we practiced (although I did well). This is only because I am more of a people driven personality than results driven. This is not to say that all those who work in for-profit education are the boiler room types either, although there are definitely bad apples.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kevin and Andrea on the salary issue. While It does seem top heavy, there is added responsibility and scrutiny to deal with. My issue would be more with the lack of sufficient salary for those who really make the university go such as evaluation teams, financial aid representatives, support staff etc.
After reading the article about college presidents, I was shocked by the amount they are getting paid. The article states that "college presidents' jobs have shifted over the years from being focused on academics to consisting heavily of fund-raising, lobbying and other external relations." It also states that a lot of presidents getting hired lately are coming from outside of academia. I don't like the fact that they are coming from outside of academics because that means that they don't know how everything is being operated underneath them. I think that it would be a much better transition for a school if a president was hired with academic and business experience.
ReplyDeleteI always knew that administration within colleges and universities made a decent living, but I didn’t realize what it actually equated to. They do hold leadership-heavy positions, and they do have to make decisions that can or do affect an institution as a whole. My main concern is where the funding for their salaries is coming from, especially the bonuses and “other compensation.” When salaries are rising as tuition is rising, it makes me wonder what the main focus within colleges and institutions may be. It is understandable that institutions want to keep the best faculty and staff around. However, at what cost…?
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Megan’s statements that some of these administrators are being hired from corporate America, running colleges like so. Hence, the corporate America salary is expected. The issue, however, is that institutions aren’t necessarily getting the “corporate revenue.” In the end, colleges need to re-evaluate their generous paying scales before students end up paying the same amount for colleges that some of the administrators make yearly.
Regarding for-profit institutions, I agree with Becca and Monica about the "sales person" and his or her role in the issue. It is that person's job and so I agree with Becca again in that there needs to be more information out there about "the college application process, student loan debt, and other cheaper options," whether that be through regulation or not. If students were better informed about this process they would be less likely to be targets and be taken advantage of.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the salaries of college presidents, some of them are insanely high and it would be the mark of a good leader to give some of that up as many of his or her students are likely struggling to pay for an education. I was also shocked to see how many people at USF make more than $100,000, especially the number of instructors and assistant and associate instructors who make that much! I am on the same page as Becca - those who are on call and watch out for student's safety and well-being deserve the higher salaries a little more.
In the "Report Faults For-Profit Colleges" article, it focuses on the large debt burdens these students are taking on by attending these institutions. However, many students are taking on large amounts of debt to attend any instistution. Having done my executive summary on students loans and the difficulty in repaying, personally I feel a huge opportunity with higher education is in actually educating incoming students and their families on exactly what their final loan debt can/will look like and what these monthly payments will look like. When we sign a mortgage for a home or a loan for a car, we know exactly how many payments we will be making and for exactly how long. This is definitely not the case for educational loans as money is just awarded with no clue how the repayments will actually look. I feel that if this were the case or at least some sort of education were offered to give a true picture of the burden that could be at the end of education, more students and families could be better prepared and able to financially set themselves up for success.
ReplyDeleteAs far as salaries go...this just seems reflective of society in general. Since we all just designed our perfect campus, maybe we could have allocated salaries appropriately in that setting. What was an ironic point in the article was the fact that university's feel forced to pay out higher salaries to retain or attract presidents when only a few weeks ago we were reading an article about the shortage of presidents to fill upcoming vacancies as current presidents retire.
WIth the "Report Faults For-Profit Colleges" article I believe when it is talking about different colleges and profit vs. non-proft it will come down to an individual institution. Even though one can get a good idea by looking at the statistics. But, in the end I think it is important for the student to look at the individual institution and then rate it and not look at institutions at a general view such as profit, non-profit, community, etc.
ReplyDelete"More Get $1 Million To Lead Colleges" is a good article because I believe it opens people's eyes to a subject matter they may not be familiar with. Some people can debate whether college presidents get too much or not enough and I would even go back to the first article and I say it's on an individual basis. But, I can say that when president's are paid a lot of money they are in the public eye and they will be held accountable. I think it is good that the number of how much their compensation packages is out because I think it puts them under a certain microscope where they know they have to perform because they know people are watching. I've heard stories from students at other colleges who think their president doesn't do anything or if their president does something it's at a football game. I believe when articles like this come out it makes president's think more about their institution and why they are really there.
The more read about for-profit universities, with this article on for-profit universities, and having Keiser University as my Alternative campus, the more I feel sorry for the people that attend them. Like Becca pointed out I feel they are being taken advantage of. Someone sees their commercial on TV and thinks it will be so easy to get this degree and make a positive step in their life, only to find out their degree means little. It is even worse if they want to transfer to a 4 yr institution and often find those credits they spent thousands of dollars on will not transfer.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the for profit colleges I agree with Becca. It's really upsetting that these institutions are taking advantage of these people who are looking for help and guidance. In the article I agreed with the scenarios listed for enrollment, especially when pointing out most students do not have the adequate tools and understanding of the degrees they are majoring in, and end up dropping out with a huge loan to pay back. I think there should be a more watchful eye over these colleges and the scams they pull on perspective students.
ReplyDeleteAs Lindsay stated the salaries of some presidents at private schools are extremely high, but are they doing enough to earn these amounts. I personally think that this varies from institution to institution and should be considered on a case by case basis. For example, when a school has only seen the increased enrollments, expansion plans, and significant turnaround on a college campus they sometimes need to pay these significant amounts to their presents in order to keep them from going elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteI also don’t know a lot about sports. Actually, Lisa can tell you that I know just as much about sports as she knows about sororities…. I think that it has always been common knowledge, and not just at USF that people in the spots industry are highly paid. They work more demanding hours, outside of the typical 9-5 realm, and they are in the public eye at all times. They are also getting paid to teach or in professional instances play a sport. These people also work like crazy, and it is not a job for everyone. I think they deserve the money they make and unless we are experts in the field we should not judge their salaries because they probably are receiving it for valid reason.
From my experience interning with the Tampa Bay Lightning (TBL) in college, (which may not be a very good example through all of the changes they have undergone in the past few years) but successful people who are not even in the industry, purchase the TBL and then run it league like a business in many aspects.
For profit colleges must be subject to regulation. For profit colleges are a classic example of “having your cake and eating it too”. They benefit from Title IV policies and have unstable accreditation. These elements, along with unacceptable student outcomes cast an ongoing dark cloud. There may be some good providers for profit degrees, but the bad elements blanket them all.
ReplyDeleteThe thing that stands out to me in the article is that ITT can graduate more than 60% of its students in four years but the University of Phoenix graduates only 9%. To me it seems like this is a product of their branding. University of Phoenix brands itself as an online institution that replaces the traditional experience for people that cannot take the time to attend a four year public institution. ITT tech talks in its commercials about how you can earn a degree fast and get back into a career. The difference in the message provided by these institutions leads to the statistics of their students. I believe that this can be looked at regarding research institutions as well. Most large public four year institutions that are nonprofit tend to graduate students at higher rates because they strive to. Their language and culture nurtures that result.
ReplyDeleteAs for the salaries at USF. I am glad that the most intelligent people in our community make that amount of money. It seems to be a lot but clearly we all have a viewpoint that the universities work develops students for the future so it is complementary to see high earnings.
Stupid internet, deleting my answers...
ReplyDelete1. I found this article very interesting, especially in it's comparison of for-profit colleges to lenders in the subprime loan market (which some argue helped cause the current recession). I am all for increasing access to higher education, but I agree with the authors of the study that for-profit colleges need significantly more regulation. For-profit colleges and universities seem to be in the wild west of education and there doesn't seem to be any sort of accountability. I think we're starting to hear more about this every day when there are more and more news reports about investigations into these school. I wholeheartedly think for-profit higher education has its place in the education spectrum, but just like public schools, there should be extensive and strong federal, state, professional, and accrediting association regulations to make sure these schools are being held accountable and are doing more than just taking peoples money.
2. I definitely want to be a university president now! Well, that might not be entirely true, but like the many other people who (I'm sure) read the article, I thought to myself, "man, it would sure be sweet to be in that position!" Thinking about it however, I don't think these pays are necessarily excessive. As the article itself points out, "College presidents' jobs have shifted over the years from being focused on academics to consisting heavily of fund-raising, lobbying and other external relation." Given the change of duties (and I happen to think these new duties are very important), it only makes sense that BOT's would start looking to the corporate world and would start offering larger pay packages to attract the types of people that would want to do those kinds of things.
After reading the article, “Report Faults For-Profit Colleges,” I had mixed impressions on how to view the situation. I’ve known people who’ve attended one of these school and made the most of it and wound up walking away with more opportunity than anyone expected (for what they specifically wanted to do). The marketing tactics, for sure, can be deceiving. However, the right type of student can benefit tremendously from the offers made by for-profit schools. In the real world, people can wind up working together with all sorts of educational backgrounds, which I saw firsthand working in the pharmacy: you had people attend universities and professional graduate schools to receive doctorates of pharmacy working alongside people who only completed high school and attended these for-profit schools to become certified pharmacy techs. And it was not unusual to have a pharmacy tech more versed and knowledgeable on the running of the pharmacy, the medicine or drug interactions than a pharmacist. One gets paid upward of $100,000 and the other $22,000… Disparity in opportunity? Yup. But for some people, if they are never given that initial opportunity to improve their lives, there’s no in-between for them due to their circumstances. It is disheartening the amount of debt they’ll accrue or the inability to secure a job upon completion and I agree with the article’s author that there ought to be more oversight so less people get scammed. A big difference between for-profit schools and public/private institutions is the ability for alumni to return with noteworthy endowments. It’s just not as feasible for for-profit schools to expect as much from its graduated students to help its current students.
ReplyDeleteLaura I completely agree with what you are saying that sports professionals work outside the normal realm of 9-5 but they aren't the only ones. Last night after class I went back to work and was at a new member presentation until about 10:30 I typically work hours well after 5pm does this justify that I get a 2.5 million dollar salary? Yes it's also true that I am not an expert in Fraternities and Sororities and I am not a seasoned professional but I even those who are aren't making 2.5 million a year. When it comes to sports people are really paying for the name to make the program more successful. Rick Pitino is the basketbal coach at UofL and while yes he is truly amazing and has done wonders whos to say there is some no name professional out there that knows just as much as he does about basketball and would make all the same decisions and maybe better ones when it comes to coaching? However that no name is just that not Rick Pitino whos name carries weight and gets great prospective players to come and sign on to make the program that much better.
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with many comments said about the for-profit educational institutions. I think with the economy in a slump, students really need to take a harder look at what they are signing up for when it comes to their education-not be drawn in to something by clever marketing tactics. It is critical for students to look into the future and think of what may not be the easy route right now, but the right decision later on. Obtaining a higher degree that is accredited, and can help you get that experience to find a higher paying job (with experiences in and outside the classroom), which is something that these for-profit institutions do not necessarily offer. Those outside the classroom experiences are what give students that extra edge when it comes to job competition, however they will be still be paying for the opportunity. It is just critical to assess what each person is looking to gain out of their educational experience, and really do a lot of research to find the right fit for them, that is not going to financially burden them too much in the future. I also agree with the fact there needs to be much more regulationa dn standards when it comes to monitoring the for-profit institutions to protect those students.
ReplyDeleteAre these instructors that are being spoken of in the article about USF salaries being paid out of E&G? I would like to know how the salaries are determined as well. Also another factor to theses instructors receiving high salaries could be because the instructors may come from a different region and are ultimately paid what we may consider a high salary. In order for USF to be competitive and get the best instructors is to either match what they were paid prior or more. Now I will never understand why instructors would miss multiple classes (without good reason) and be paid that much.
ReplyDeleteAs far as for profit institutions targeting low income students, I find this issue is reoccurring in higher education and not just with for profit institutions, I's business unfortunately, when it come to finances it doesn't always get the best of everyone.